Jennifer Lacy is a Lean Practice Leader with more than 18 years in the construction industry creating a culture of collaboration, continuous improvement, learning, and leadership development. Jennifer naturally elevates others while achieving better resu...
Jennifer Lacy is a Lean Practice Leader with more than 18 years in the construction industry creating a culture of collaboration, continuous improvement, learning, and leadership development. Jennifer naturally elevates others while achieving better results aligned with core values like respect for people. Her WHY? To attack every interaction as an opportunity to help elevate those doing work while constantly finding ways for improvement! She earned an Operations Management BA degree from Texas A&M University-Commerce. In addition to her job duties, Jennifer is also involved with NAMC DFW, NAWIC, LCI DFW CoP, and LCI National as an Approved Instructor. Her speaking experience includes presentations at LCI Congress, SMPS National Build Business Conference, ASHE National Conference, local LCI CoP, and TEXO events.
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Today’s episode is sponsored by Bosch RefinemySite. It’s a cloud-based construction platform. Bosch uses Lean principles to enable your entire team, from owners to trade contractors – to plan, communicate, document, and execute in real-time. It’s the digital tool that supports the Last Planner System® process and puts it all together in one simple, collaborative ecosystem. Bosch RefinemySite empowers your team, builds trust, creates a culture of responsibility, and enhances communication. Learn more and Try for free at https://www.bosch-refinemysite.us/tryforfree
Today’s episode is sponsored by Construction Accelerator. This online learning system for teams and individuals offers short, in-depth videos on numerous Lean topics for Builders and Designers to discuss and implement, just like on this podcast. This is tangible knowledge at your fingertips in the field, in the office, or at home. Support your Lean learning at your own pace. Learn more at http://trycanow.com/
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Felipe Engineer 0:00
It's the 4am hour, the time that I'm getting up, but as with energy though, Jennifer, I got up with energy because it's the one and only Jennifer Lacey. The one the only, I can't stop thinking about what our good friend, your better friend, Jamie said in LinkedIn and we were at LCI in Phoenix. She's like people, no more autographs.
Jennifer Lacy 0:28
I got some jokesters around me.
Felipe Engineer 0:30
She's not even joking. I mean, people were like coming up to you in awe. So let's not let's not even try to downplay it. It was a real phenomenon that happened. I saw people like, there she is, like, wow, starpower It was cool.
Jennifer Lacy 0:46
That come I think I realized, though, that it comes to that most of my conversations, and most of the people that I interact with, my entire focus is how do I elevate them? And how do I lift them off? And how do I shine a light on them? And that's just like normal for me. I don't think about it. And because of that, I think it draws people in because they're just like, Who is this person? What are they doing and why are they doing?
Felipe Engineer 1:09
Those are all good questions that people that don't know you will be asking? Absolutely true. Welcome to the EBFC show, the easier better for construction podcast. I'm your host Felipe Engineer-Manriquez. This show is all about the business of construction. Today's episode is sponsored by...
Boshrefinemysite is a cloud based construction collaboration platform that applies Lean principles to enable your entire team to plan, communicate and execute in real time. It's the digital tool that works in tandem with your last planner system process and puts it all together in one simple, collaborative ecosystem. This easy to use platform is available in English, German, Spanish, Portuguese, and French and can be used on desktops, tablet and mobile devices. According to Spencer Easton, scheduling manager at Oakland construction, "Refinemysite, in my opinion is the best cleanest tool on the market for Last Planner." Here's what our users have to say. We've looked at three other digital scheduling platforms and none compared to the straightforward approach refined my site takes from milestone planning all the way down to daily tasks. This program gives every general contractor and their trade partners meaningful collaboration, accountability and KPIs. Registered today to try refined my site for free for 60 days.
Felipe Engineer 2:41
Today's episode is sponsored by Construction Accelerator.
The design and construction industries come up with and build great things. But we also build in waste in how we do those things, in our interactions in our contracts in our logistics. So what does this do for our bottom line, or our next project, the best firms maximize their value by removing that waste, and only doing what's essential to the work what makes them money. Construction accelerator will train you to see the waste and give your teams the Lean tools and experience to remove it immediately. All online. Construction accelerator is made up of three to nine minute videos that can be watched again and again, in the field, at the office and at home. All broken down by topic. Need to learn pole planning, we have videos on the process, how to set up a room and how to kick off a team need to set up a target value delivery project. We discuss all the aspects of TVD especially cost. Or maybe you just need to brush up on five as well. We have videos on that as well. You can download and print reference materials to use on site to immediately translate watching into doing subscribe today at trycanow.com. Let's build an industry not just a project.
Felipe Engineer 3:57
To me show is also sponsored by the Lean construction Institute. LCI is working to lead the building industry and transforming its practices and culture. Its vision is to create a healthy and thriving industry that delivers outstanding project outcomes every time for everyone. Check the show notes for more information now to the show. Welcome to the show, Jennifer Lacey. Jennifer. Oh my goodness. All I can say is Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer. Jennifer some people call you Jen but to me you're always Jennifer. Okay. I don't I don't feel like I'm on the Jen wavelength yet.
Jennifer Lacy 4:35
Well, it's funny because I grew up grew up and it was Lacey just because of sports and things like that. It was just probably easier for the coaches just to you know, Lacey. So that's why I grew up with and then went to college, and it kind of changed to Jen in college. And then it's kind of been this hybrid. You know, whoever how you know me and how how much you know me. And then there's like, every once in a while those random knees come out and I cringe because the only two people on this earth that have called me that and not gotten, you know, either blacklisted or punched or something is my dad who is no longer with us and then one brother who does it.
Felipe Engineer 5:13
I didn't even think about that. I didn't know one person of that name. I won't even say Good. To me that just doesn't even fit. It's like, it's like saying, Oh, guys, purple. It's clearly right now it's black. Because so early in the morning, Jennifer, please introduce yourself. Let people know a little bit about you. Because we were dying to know, like, even I'm done. I've known you for a while. And we'll get into how we met. And no time. But please, please, please, Jennifer. Say hello, good.
Jennifer Lacy 5:45
Okay, I will I had most of the stuffs out there. But I will say it just because I know sometimes these reach people that just randomly pop, you know, pop across the screen.
Felipe Engineer 5:53
You know, it's you and me listening to this podcast. So it's really you're just telling me things that I need to know about you. Okay?
Jennifer Lacy 6:00
Okay, I am Jennifer Lacey. My title is lean Practice Leader. What that really entails is how do our projects, our offices, our people understand lean and culture and the importance of how are we using not only the Lean tools, but how are we creating those culture of caring about the people that we work with? How are we retaining people? How are we recruiting people, you know, how are our jobs, building relationships with, you know, the entire project team, I try to help them. For us, it's building forward. That's what we've coined it. And it really focuses on collaboration, continuous improvement, leadership, development, and learning. And so pretty much every lean tool in the world can fall into one of those.
Felipe Engineer 6:43
A lot of Lean tools. And I appreciate that at LCI, Congress, Jennifer did a fantastic presentation with your partner in crime. Christina Smith, Christina Smith, yes, the one the only Christina Smith. But, Jennifer, that was an amazing if I was looking at an A three grading your introduction, I would say you've only told me the current state. I need some background. I need some context. I am hungry for some past information. We don't have to start at when the earthquake but can you fast forward to what did you study in school all those years ago.
Jennifer Lacy 7:17
So and this is going to be kind of a roller coaster round about how I got here, which is awesome, because this is my favorite thing to talk about. So because it's so not typical, which is fun. So I studied operations management. Whoo. So like most people go, Okay, you were that's not really where you came from, and what you have done. So I did, I studied operations management. My degree was operations in HR. And it really was funny, because I kind of was reflecting recently and going back and, you know, thinking about that, and like, I took classes that talked about Justin time and supply chain and like, when you're creating, you know, creating things for manufacturing. I mean, like I and it's one of those that I've done so much since then, that I didn't remember that until I started thinking about it. And I was like, oh, like how did I mean? Like, it's kind of cool, how that whole roundabout way and how I got here. So my degree was in operations management. And so then I went and did some photography.
Felipe Engineer 8:16
Oh my god, surprise.
Jennifer Lacy 8:18
I know I don't think I've shared that before. I haven't shared that one before you got a nugget
Felipe Engineer 8:22
UFC show exclusive. So I
Jennifer Lacy 8:24
was doing a I was working like a part time job and going to school and finishing that up. So I did. I mean, let me backtrack a little bit. So full time basketball, full time scholarship, basketball, and college
Felipe Engineer 8:37
people you can't tell it this like tight portrait view here. But Jennifer I feel like is your like my height. I feel like we're saying like we see eye to eye when we're standing together. And that's me wearing my like work boots. That's like if I was barefoot, I think she might even have some height on me.
Jennifer Lacy 8:53
So played volleyball, no basketball for four years volleyball for one year in college during college obviously didn't get to work a lot, just because there was a lot going on. But as I was finishing up, did I got a part time job doing photography, just because I just I was having fun, I get to interact with people. And that it was so I did that in the summer, just as a part time job. And so as I was graduating, I got promoted, like super fast to do to be like a district manager for like six stores. Like within three months. It was kind of crazy. And so that was two or three years I did that just you know, right out of college, just kind of okay, this was fun, and got to meet people and got to travel and do some stuff like that. And then all then got recruited. It was kind of funny. So I had some relationships with some parents that had kids playing basketball, where I you know, where I was living, and got recruited to kind of help coach kind of, you know, do some do some coaching on the side. And through that got me back to the school that I graduated with, and the district and actually got recruited to go coach and teach
Felipe Engineer 9:59
there and what So what lovely state is all this happening in? In? Absolutely, Texas? Yes, Texas, Texas. That's basically a country. I mean, so you're in the country of Texas. Okay, all this story is making more sense. You know, I, I didn't realize I mean, I always suspected Jennifer, that there's some like massive creative streak inside of you, and then not and I've heard that you've been into photography for so many years, and you picked it up, it's just making more sense with where your career history, I hope you're going to take us and like give some more context to for people that don't know. But ladies and gentlemen, Jennifer is a perfect example of of true martial artists, I'm just going to go right out there and just call and label you right now, martial artist, she has the operational ninja skills, the warrior spirit inside of her than the training. And also, I'm sure you got some mad basketball skills, too. And I'm pretty sure you fall quite a lot of people. I mean, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna say right now, it's all the people that played against Jennifer, I'm going to apologize on her behalf for all the files and all the body checks that you've had to suffer through the years. Because she's very aggressive, I can tell I can tell you that much. But it's totally appropriate. And that's what, that's what you're going to have with the warrior. But then you've got this creative side where you're doing photography, okay.
Jennifer Lacy 11:18
So then got started coaching and teaching. So did that for five years, which was amazing. And I loved it. And my dad, I grew up my dad was a teacher, lifelong teacher. And so I you know, kind of knew what that arena look like, went in and started in. So when went to do that, but obviously, you know, you need a teaching degree to be able to teach. So I was teaching and getting my teaching certificate at the same time. So I went back to school to get my degree in English, and be able to teach and so I was coaching and teaching and going to school, which for me, it was like a perfect storm because I was learning and I was having fun. And I was doing things that I enjoy. So you know, it was perfect. So went and did that for five years. And the reason that it was only five years is about the fourth year, I was like, Okay, I've taken all the classes, I am rocking and rolling. And okay, what's next. And I realized that in that arena, which much respect is my dad did it for almost 30 years, is it's kind of something that you have to be like good with that you have to be good with, Okay, here's this, here's the status quo. Here's what is the expectation, and you are just kind of working within within that. And I that is not a place that I'm going to thrive. Like I was ANC, I was what's next? What do I do? I took the classes that I taught the classes, you know, and then it was like, Okay, how do I grow? How do I get better? And I realized that there are some things that, you know, I just can't, I can't, it's gonna be hard for me to come to work within. And so about five years in, I realized I needed to do something else had no idea
Felipe Engineer 13:00
at this point, you're still like in your 20s. Still,
Jennifer Lacy 13:03
yeah, I was let me think where it was maybe lay early 30s 20s,
Felipe Engineer 13:07
early 30s. And this is like a perfect time to rebel against your father and like carve out your own path. So ladies, gentlemen, for those that don't know, cuz I know I've got some inside track. Like every very intelligent human being, you have to go against your parents a little bit. And a little bit of rebellion. I think remember Jennifer telling me like, my dad was a teacher, there was absolutely no way I was going to become a teacher. And then she wrote back into it through a series of unplanned circumstances that your father had no hand in. But it's what happens. I told my son this all the time, Jennifer's like if you want to not fall into exactly what I'm doing. Don't resist me. Because the more you resist, the more you'll become your father. It's what happens.
Jennifer Lacy 13:53
Absolutely. And he was a single father of four kids. So it was like, not only was he a teacher, but then it's you're getting raised by you know, they don't they're there. Their salary is not great. So he's a single father with four kids. And he's driving the bus. He's teaching school, he's working at Radio Shack on the weekends. Like he did a lot of stuff to help raise four kids. And I was like, I'm not ever gonna go in this industry. Never. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna they're gonna respect me. And I'm gonna go and be somewhere where I'm at. And then of course, that's right.
Felipe Engineer 14:20
So you get how'd you get yanked out of teaching, because I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty stable. Like once you're a teacher, and you've got coursework and you got some good reputation. And obviously, you're a good teacher, because even I've learned from you every single time we've been together. This is no exception. So how'd you get pulled out of teaching? What pulled you out?
Jennifer Lacy 14:39
So it's kind of this this kind of this is, this is comical, a little bit now looking back on it. So now it's like I realized, and Jesse and I have this conversation a lot. I'm a doer, like I just if something comes up, and there's an idea, I'll just, I just want to do it and then you know, we'll figure it out later. Like, we could screw it up. It could be, you know, not so perfect, but then we'll learn from Matt and I looking back, I realized, like, at the end of probably that fifth year, I was just one of those where I kind of had this moment where I'm like, I can stay here and I can be comfortable. And I and this is I mean, this is this will be, you know, I mean security like, and then, but on the flip side, I was it was, I was jumping out of my skin, because I'm like, where do I learn? What do I do next? How can I grow? How you know, that's like, my, that's my normal. And I realized, like, it can't be here, I left teaching with no job. The job
Felipe Engineer 15:34
was no job, jumped out of teaching with no job, ladies and gentlemen, the author of outliers says that at the five year mark, that is when you achieve mastery when you're working full time on something. So Jennifer becomes a masterful teacher. And she does have a she's got the cred. She's got the skills, witness testimony, I'm testifying that her skills are awesome there. She jumps away from teaching, she's like, I'm out. And we're where do you go from there.
Jennifer Lacy 16:00
So I left and and I really didn't know, like, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just knew that in the meantime, I had to, like make money because I had to, you know, pay my bills. So I left and then I went and kind of applied to a couple of you know, just temp agencies and things and said, Here's my skills, here's what I can do, and got pulled into doing some, you know, just kind of just some contract stuff. And it was whether it was projects for you know, bigger companies, you know, hey, we got a week long here, hey, we need you to, you know, redo this, or, you know, some of it was PowerPoint, some of it was going in and organizing, you know, there's just a lot of it was just kind of just admin stuff, really, you know, but you know, stuff that I could do, and I was enjoying it. And, and then I just kind of started applying to different places. Back then it was I got the Sunday paper and I laid it out on the table and I got the marker. And I remember just going in circle and going that sounds cool. What about that? I mean, literally, it was like my, my Sunday. I mean, I was having fun, like, Oh, what about this? What about this, and then you get them all together. And then you get on the computer. And then you type out all your cover letters, and who they're to. And then you get your resumes. And then you get all the fax numbers, and then you are faxing all these resumes out to everyone like
Felipe Engineer 17:14
I was gonna call it Jennifer, just based on the technology you mentioned, it's gotta be the late 90s Oh my god, yeah, fax machines, like some of the listeners are like, what is a fax machine? It's like, don't even worry about it. Just Google that later on your own. We're not going to go into that
Jennifer Lacy 17:27
yet. So I just applied to I mean, again, ones that I thought this would be fun. What about this, I mean, it was I really did not have any parameters. And I in so through that process, which was like this, you know, the summer after my fifth year of teaching, you know, got calls went in on some interviews. I mean, I had a couple of, you know, little jobs where I'd done some admin work I'd done, you know, I'd done some technology, I was very, you know, I taught English and technology. So I was very, you know, I was able to work in programs, and, you know, I could interact with people, and I was, I used to be a coach and a teacher. So it was like, I could, you know, interact, you know, and communicate I, my degree was in English. So writing, I mean, there was just a lot of little things. And I thought the interview went amazing. And, you know, I'm also doing all these other things. And so I leave the interview and about, I think that afternoon, or maybe the next day, I get a call from the temp agency. And it was, hey, we got this like, three month contract. I mean, for someone who doesn't have a job, like you're like, Man, this is like, this is good. But the interview went great. And again, there was no timeline on hey, we're going to make a decision. It's like you kind of knew it was within the next, you know, they were looking for somebody. So I don't even know if you're going to hire me. But just so you know, I currently have, you know, a potential contract for three months, and I would hate to commit to them. And then you offer me the job. And then I have to and then I have to tell them, I can't finish it. So if you're thinking about hiring me, if you can just let me know. So I can tell them no, that was my conversation with him. And he said, Give me a couple hours and I'll call you back. I said, Okay. And so in that couple hours, he called my references. And I got a call back that said you should have an offer letter in the mail the next day. Look at
Felipe Engineer 19:22
that, ladies and gentlemen, via modal Masashi one of the Kyoto Japan Renaissance sword fighters, he was famous for saying this quote, this is just proving that Jennifer is a is a martial artist. He said there are many paths to the top of the mountain. And that is by far one of the most efficient hiring stories I've ever heard. And I hear hiring stories every week, Jennifer, so congratulations. And then you've been there. Like you said, you look back and when she's looking back and saying oh my gosh, it's because like it's gone in a blink of an eye. Right? It's been like, wow, you're still learning and growing every single day you're still getting plugged in. You're feel energized. And you are at the top of the game. I mean, you're one of my peers, one of the few people in the industry. Gangster lean out there. It's just gonna call it making. I mean making waves. making waves culture queen, I think is a, I've heard that kicked around in the tribe. Culture warrior, culture warrior. That's right. She doesn't like all the hierarchy people showing up. Jamie, take notes, just like all the hierarchy, culture warrior. You know what, Jamie, we're talking,
Jennifer Lacy 20:35
like, that's the person that protects the queen. So I'm
Felipe Engineer 20:38
absolutely, absolutely. diver. That's, that's amazing. So you get in, you start working. And I think you start working your way up and you end up in marketing somehow, at some point. How long were you in that role? And what's like one surprise, and I want to hear one surprising thing, that that marketing tool that you that you still use today.
Jennifer Lacy 20:57
So when I got hired, I wear a lot of hats, just because you're opening an office. And there's a lot going on. So when I got hired, I was doing marketing. I was helping with BD, I was supporting operations. I was supporting pre construction. And then also because of my background, I was kind of it.
Felipe Engineer 21:15
Oh my goodness. Other surprise gem Jennifer DOING IT support my goodness. Just said, when you said you wear a lot of hats, I was like, Okay, there's gonna be some hats worn here. I did not expect and it had to be on that head. It was
Jennifer Lacy 21:31
because because of my background, and obviously in teaching a little bit, I had to you know, you had to troubleshoot some things. And I think coming in, it was, you know, I mean, there's not a lot of options, and they're there, you know, and so I got to be the person either on site doing it or on the phone doing it on site. So Oh, yes, yeah.
Felipe Engineer 21:49
So this culture warriors doing all that stuff. Would you say that you got your, your background training in lean or your exposure to continuous improvement and absolute respect for people champion? that happen in university studies? Did that happen later on the job? Oh, we're not there yet. We haven't gotten there yet. People buckle up. Hold on. Let me put my seatbelt on. Okay, Jennifer, I'm ready. Take me there.
Jennifer Lacy 22:16
So I had all those hats. And, um, you know, we were growing an office in Dallas, you know, and so, it was that was 2003. And, and so I thought we'll go with that. Yeah. 2003 sorry. And so, as we were growing, um, you know, we were there, I was not able to do everything. And it took a lot it actually, I remember when, like I had, I knew I was gonna have to go have the conversation and go, like, I can't do all of this. Like, we have to hire somebody to answer the phones that we have to hire, you know, because at first you kind of you're trying to figure out what you need, what you don't need, you want to keep that overhead low. And I remember having to go have that conversation of like, I can't, I can't keep doing all of this. And it was so hard, because like, for me, it's like athlete right out...
Felipe Engineer 23:00
Hey, real quick!
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Jennifer Lacy 23:53
So the first conversation is, you know, I can't do this because marketing marketing was a big role, you know, in our, you know, you know, our industry like being the person that is helping with not only, you know, procuring the work, but going after the work, the presentations, you know, all of that stuff. And so, and as we were doing that a lot of that had to do with you know, being able to communicate, being able to build relationships, being able to interact with people, and you know, sometimes on the fly, sometimes you have to and then also prepping people and helping people to understand the importance of not just verbal communication, but nonverbal communication. So that arena, like I loved and I love not just because it was I had to do it, but then I was able to watch and learn and see things that we work in an industry that is doer, seller, so are people that are out there selling our our builders, you know, there are people that have to go in a room and you know, and talk to their clients that they're going to work for. And I think I just found a place that I loved being able to not only watch and see things and see those nuggets of things that they were saying and those stories they were telling and being able to tell say, Man, you've got to elevate that you got to highlight that because that's what's going to connect to people. And I think that's where, for me now looking back where I started seeing how things connected and how people connected, and the things that were important that we had to highlight, because that is what's going to draw people in.
Felipe Engineer 25:14
I'm only pausing because I love that story, Jennifer absolutely do. But I want you to tell me about when does lien come into the picture? That's what I'm on the edge of. Okay, so come on. Now,
Jennifer Lacy 25:26
I know, I know, we're on like, believe it or not, I
Felipe Engineer 25:29
always put my seatbelt. Yeah, come on. Okay, so
Jennifer Lacy 25:33
sad. Let me think the timing wise. So we're going on seven years, so about seven years ago, so that would be 11 years in, we had just finished our you know, or we're, we're on to IPD project. So two full IPD projects, two different locations, and we were having some success. So we figured out some things that were working, we decided, Oh, well, we these are great tools, we should do them across the company, because that will make us better. And focusing on the tool part didn't go so well, like, you know, across the company that was having success, and people were doing well. And then you tell them now they need to do these different tools. And so it didn't, it didn't roll out very well. And and so you had to stop and kind of reflect, take some steps back and go, Okay, you know, why? Why? And what do we need to do to fix that. And in that process, we also got another job IPD, that was completely driven by the owner. And it was completely culture focused. And it was, I know that we have a schedule, and I know we have all these things in place, that I get to do this one time. And it's going to be the best project. And if it takes longer, it's going to take longer, but we're going to make sure this is exactly what I want. And he had that culture inside his hospital, he had that culture. And so it transferred to the team. And at the end of that project, I think we saw some things that we were like, there's things here we can capture, that could help other projects. And so a team of people kind of sat down and spent some time, you know, dig in, and what are those things that really made this project better. And though what they came out of that meeting with are our four tenets, which are collaboration, continuous improvement, learning, and leadership development. And after that meeting, the leadership decided this is the direction we need to go. And they formed kind of a committee, you know, you can call it whatever you want, but it's what we call building forward now. And that is when I got pulled in, mainly just because you know, your marketing so that it's always good to have people in there that can help message it. And I sat through, I'm gonna say the first onboarding was probably within a month of them sitting down and kind of talking through what this look like. And I sat through one project, onboarding, and I listened. And they talked through the tenants, and they talked through how this was going to change our company, and what it looked like, and the things we focused on and the things that we highlighted. And I like couldn't sit still, I was in the room. And they were talking just, I mean, again, this was not tool focused, this was just culture and how we're going to be how we're going to be creating this environment that people are going to want to be a part of, and how we're going to care about the other people around us. And we were already doing a lot of these things, but it was very intentional. And I like was in that room listening, you know, just kind of sitting in the back watching. And, and like, it lit me on fire. And I'm like, I need to know what this is, I need to know more about this. And so started following and kind of, you know, really digging in. And I mean, I just I pretty much said I want to know everything. But in the meantime, there's also this construction thing that like, you know, there's builders out there that are building, building things, and lean and the tools and the culture and how those go together. And so I asked 1000 questions, and I bothered the crap out of anybody that will listen to me. And I read books, and I learned and I took classes too, but but they were willing to like, answer my questions and walk me through, you know, different things. I mean, to the point to where, through this process, you know, I'd show up and they're like, Okay, Jennifer, you're facilitating the stand up today. Like, I mean, just and I'm like, Well, okay, I mean, like, I either do it, you know, I either sit back and I like talk about this crap, or I actually step in and I do it. And it was that's kind of how I got in it. And once I was in it, it was just like, okay, when do I jump next? When do I jump out? You know, what's the next cliff that I have to jump off of? Because that's what that was just I was excited. And I knew it was gonna change our industry and make it.
Felipe Engineer 29:33
Oh my god, Jennifer, so you didn't see it because you're so animated. But I had to unbuckle my seatbelt, because I couldn't contain all my energy, my chair. And I was like, almost holding my breath but then it's slowing down and expanding my breath because I'm excited to That's That's incredible. That's an incredible story. He just like got in there. You threw yourself in and they're like Alright, go you got it and you started learning on your own and going for yourself. I mean, so many people people that we know, Jennifer, and we know a lot of people that have had similar types of experiences like that, but I just love how you threw yourself all the way into it. And you've absolutely have Trailblazer. I mean, it's like, I can't even believe that I was just seven years ago. It seems like with, you know, where you are now, all the success you've had, and all the support you have, and I do want to, I want to slow down and talk a little bit more about the support. But let's just take a second to bask in the freakin glory, that it is of having all that exciting adventure time, over the past seven years. It's incredible. It's incredible. I love that story. And I think all the people listening, if you didn't get excited and take a deep breath during that time, then you might want to check your pulse, because you might be dead. Awesome, Jennifer, thank you for telling me that story in that way. Oh, man, I my heart's like, I think my pulse is like over 90 right now. So let me let me keep on keeping the seatbelt off. So it's not too not going back on. Okay. So fast forward to now. You've got something unique. I heard you say something at LCI link instructions to conference in Phoenix, Arizona, and you said the word all projects, you remember that? You're talking the story? And you said all projects, and I looked at you? And I was like, huh, I was like that is an accomplishment? Let's celebrate that. Can you tell people what are we talking about this all projects thing you were talking about all we
Jennifer Lacy 31:32
do building forward all across our entire company, all projects, all departments and all offices. And so we that was really what our presentation was about. And specifically when I say all projects, so we at this point 125 projects about 50, almost 63 project teams. So we have 63 project teams that encompass those 125 projects. And the way that we've rolled out this implementation process and what those steps are, and what it looks like, and my role and where I kind of am able to lead and help facilitate what we're doing. And we have 100% buy in from the top is every project starts off going through that process, which is you know, from I mean, right after Project Award, you know, through pre con through alignment through onboarding through the project. I mean, it is 100%. Every project does it, because we track it. So every one of them at the beginning of the job internally, go through, look at the tools, look at the culture, look at the things that that team can do. And it's very intentional, that it's not me going, here's what you're going to do. It's in I think our title was one size fits none, because there's not two projects that are doing the exact same thing. But they sit down together and decide what commitments they're going to make when it comes to building forward. And these Lean tools. And then that's their baseline. And at that point, then every month, they sit down as a team and assess, how are they doing. And that data I get as well. So not only am I able to see the things they're doing, but I'm able to see trends over time on maybe how they were doing something and then maybe if we're having gaps, or they're needing some support. And I'm able to do that for 100% of
Felipe Engineer 33:15
our 100%. Ladies and gentlemen, let me unpack that for all the people listening. And Jennifer, if I had, if I had the ability to make noise on this podcast, I would be this would be the moment that I hit the applause button because this is incredible. We have a general contractor in the United States of America, that's operating across multiple regions, multiple states, and their leadership, their executive team has made a commitment that all projects will adopt this based on experiences that their company had on a single project seven years ago. And then the second project and they just made a decision, seeing the impact to their people and their client, that this is something that they want to carry across the entire company. There wasn't like, maybe we should do this. Maybe we shouldn't they had all those conversations. And then they said no, we are doing this. And they brought Jennifer in and look at what they've done in a very short amount of time. They have done a complete transformation of how they deliver projects. It is an incredible story. Jennifer, that is that is something that is so rare. That's a first ever on the E BFC. Show, just so you know, I know it's the first ever it was it was so worth it all the rescheduling that we did so that we can land on this exact perfect day to have that story. After we heard that story at Congress with Mrs. Smith was freaking awesome. And I think, you know, if you're listening to this, this is just see what's possible. We have a shift happening in the world. There is a shift in how construction is going down right now. So if you're out there, and you're on a project, you've heard one way Wish Jennifer's explained what happened, you might be if you're listening to the show, you might be on that that first project transformation ripple. Yes, we do ripples of impact. This is the first ripple the first wave. And in a very short amount of time transformation is occurring. Now, we're improving the lives of so many people. And I think, you know, for those of you listening, and I know, there's, I know, there's some Six Sigma black belts listening to this, the tracking that Jennifer is doing, I want to just slow this down, because I know Jennifer, so Well, it's not to police people, it's to see trends and to help and to bring support to teams that are learning new things, because everybody isn't born, knowing how to do all these things. And, and setting culture is a skill that can absolutely be learned. And the Lean tools, you have different levels of adoption on these tools. So I think that's very important to say, and, like Peter Drucker said, what gets measured, gets managed. And we could also add in Peter, if you're okay with this, listening from beyond supported, what gets measured, gets supported and improved. Right, Jennifer? And improved as a great point. Great point. Fantastic. I love that. And, yeah, what's your relationship now with the executives today?
Jennifer Lacy 36:20
Well, I mean, it's I, my communication with them is, I mean, I talked to them monthly, but in their they have, you know, their leadership meetings, we have quarterly meetings that we talked through what projects are finishing, what projects are starting, you know, where is what's the team look like? What's the experience look like? Because I want to be clear, you know, I'm not, you know, we don't have you know, 20 $300 million projects, we have projects that go anywhere from one to 2 million all the way up to 350 million, and they are still sitting down, you know, they're sitting down, they're talking through what they can do. And again, it may not be, you know, where they're implementing 15 or 20 tools, you know, they're they're really focusing on things that they can, they can control, things that are within their, their circle of control. And sometimes it's just those daily huddles, sometimes it's just that visual communication and how they're putting it up. Sometimes, you know, it's sometimes it's those small things, but my job is not is only to shine a light on them to make sure that we elevate them to make sure we recognize that, at that job, it may just be one or two things. But we're in construction. And we know these people, they are all over the place. They change jobs, they change regions, they are all you know, they work under different people. And it just being able to go from one job to another knowing that they've already, you know, they they're, they're familiar and they're comfortable with this one tool, now they can go to another job and be able to see, okay, here's what it looks like when you have, you know, five or six trades or you know, versus one or two at a time and things like that. So just being able to see that and watch it and then let them know, Hey, you're doing exactly what, you know what, what we want you to be doing, and how can we make this better. And that's my biggest thing is, it's not just putting things in place and going, Okay, you're great. Now I'm going to move on to the next job. But it's always okay, here's what we're doing. What are you saying what's working? What's not working? Hmm, but we don't even have a trailer yet. Okay, that's okay. You know, put the boards up in the hallway, and then have your daily meeting in the hallway. And hey, if people are walking by invite them to come and sit and see what you're doing. So it's like, they're like, Oh, I think about that. It's just always how do we make this work? And how do we make it better? Because we realized that with our process, all the things that that are happening within that process, we have control over. We can't control every client's we can't control every designer, we can't. But we know that there are things that we can control. And we know that we can do it on every project, whether we have buy in from every person that's above us or around us, but we can still make it happen.
Felipe Engineer 38:44
Absolutely. Jennifer, you absolutely do make things happen. I want to I want to peel back and go somewhere where you're not even expecting. You brought some innovation to the Lean construction Institute. I've been involved with LCIs annual event. For the past, I don't even know how many years. Okay, I cannot I'm not as good as counting backwards in time as you are. But we got involved when we when it was hosted in the beautiful city of Fort Worth, Texas. And you were on the committee you brought forward and innovation for the Lean Learning Labs. I just heard from somebody this week, Jennifer, they said, I got hands on experience at a lean lab in Texas. And I'm still using what I learned today. Surprised Jennifer it was something about Scrum that I taught them and that's why they're telling me but awesome. But Jennifer brought this new idea that did not exist in the 20 plus years that LCI had been doing events. This was the first time that they were trying something new with these learning labs where people could get their hands dirty with something and learn something hands on and they've kept it ever since now. Then innovation that that improvement that give back to the larger lean community. Jennifer, what brings you back to LCI every year? What is it about this nonprofit and this group of people this tribe? And I want to we'll talk more about the tribe in a second. But what about LCI is bringing you back? And how has it benefited you and what you're doing?
Jennifer Lacy 40:14
So again, early on, when you know this, I think Chicago was my first one. And when I Oh, well, look at that. Yes. And so when I got brought into that, that was early in this journey, where I get I was asking questions, I got pulled in by we have, you know, some of our senior superintendents, project managers, superintendents that were, you know, I've been leading, you know, a lot of this charge. And I came in and just, I mean, soaked everything in, and just it was like a kid in a candy shop Christmas morning. I mean, it was everything possibly that could happen. And so did that for the first couple years. I was like, come on, come on, come on. And I think over the last six years, you know, going on seven. Now, what draws me to Congress is 100%, the people that I'm going to sell my goodness. And it's, it's our relationships that we've built is the things that we've the people that again, you're you said, we're going to hit that try piece and what that means, but again, I go and I sit because the people that are presenting are people that I know. And I know that they're doing some amazing things. I go to the Learning days, every time because it doesn't matter what class I'm sitting in, I'm getting a nugget I'm getting, I'm hearing something that I didn't think about it as an exercise that now I can use for my alignment meetings. I've always find things in the learning day. So I always, I mean, that's a huge piece for me. But it's it's the connections and the people that I get to see that it is like a family reunion.
Felipe Engineer 41:37
And then we hang up all night until it's day again. Yes, it's big. And I remember Yeah, I remember like, we're hanging out with the tribe. Every day after Congress and during Congress to and you guys, there were some pop up sessions to where people streamed in. For those that couldn't make it in person due to COVID. We're still living under a pandemic. So people we we adapted and innovated. And there was some folks that did some live streaming from our tribe to connect some partners that that couldn't come in because of travel restrictions.
Jennifer Lacy 42:09
When we say our tribe, we again, we can talk about a lot of things where this started was when you think about I know there's some books out there, it takes a village. And there's things out there that we know, we can't do it by ourselves. We also know we work within an industry that's broken, and has been broken. And that for us to continue to try to make something better. If we can, we can put our own effort into it. And again, it may we may create a ripple we may create something that's going to create change that are impacting a lot of things in their space is really cool.
Felipe Engineer 42:41
And then we've got, you know, the different podcasts. And Jennifer, you've been on a slew of podcasts lately. It's kind of funny, like, I've get I'm getting requests to be on people's show. And they're like, well, because you're friends with Jennifer, we want to have you come on the podcast. I'm like, Oh, thank goodness. Friendship is continues to pay dividends every day. I just had two invitations to a podcast just this week, Jennifer, both places you've already been. So we're spreading the word out. We're not just letting the one off. We'd love the foundation that LCI has given us and Jennifer, we've talked about this a long time, we both were gonna keep showing up all the time, because of the people that go the community that we have there. It is the one space ladies and gentlemen where people forget, like we're you work for a week. And we just share as if we're all in one project. And it's like right away from day one. I've seen a lot of people have that same sentiment where they say, like, wow, the the sharing the transparency, the openness, the honesty, it's like nothing they've ever seen in construction, because even in some companies, or some very large companies where people don't even have opportunities to share across projects. And so coming to an event like that is something unique, but through all the media to share the blog posts. We've got the Yeah, like you mentioned Joan Qian and the lien builder, the lien builder blog, where they're bringing in contributors, you've contributed some articles there. Mr. hoots has contributed some articles there, as well as Jesse, I, myself and many more other people that we know, and that we hang out with constantly. We've got all these mediums, all this information we're putting out there for free, because we want people to have access to the AHA has to be encouraged and supported to experiment and we absolutely help people we even jump in on clubhouse and talk live to people weekly. Could you tell people what what is the theme of that live stream that happens on a seems to be like every month?
Jennifer Lacy 44:41
Yes. So I will be happy to and it's really evolving and it's turning into something else, which will be exciting to see what that turns into. So it started with Jesse kind of having a backstory of, you know, some relationship stuff. And so we had a conversation based on some feedback here. Got after a relationship was coming to an end. And that person tried to come to where he was, and created these letters that took each of the SS in the five s process and tried to relate it to a personal relationship and how you are trying to fix it, or you're trying to maintain it, what does that look like? And so he had these letters, and he wanted to share them. And he didn't really know what that look like in that platform would look like. And we started talking, and we started kind of, you know, collaborating on some other stuff. And he's like, we need to do this. And so what it is, is we took, we take each of the esses and we sort set, shine, standardize and sustain. And we apply them to personal relationships that we're calling it Lee love. Because what we realized, and a lot of people maybe don't realize yet is lean is a lifestyle, it is not a, I go on the job, I put the lien hat on, and then I'm able to work at my job. And then I go and I take the hat hard hat off, and I walk off the job. And then I have to live in this other world. It really transcends home and work. And sometimes we forget that because we get caught up in the tool part of it. And we forget about the people side of lean. And what we have really been focused on and trying to be intentional, is that with lean and personal relationships, there are a lot of things that transcend it. And so we just dug into one which is the five s process, and how that relates to personal relationships, whether you're trying to figure out why what's working, why it's not working, how to fix it, or even how to maintain it, which is really cool. Because the space we've created in this, it's been beyond what we could have even imagined. But we've created this space where people are coming in and listening to us talk about this. And then they're coming in into this, and they're getting vulnerable. And there's and they're really finding a place that they can share, you know, experiences about their own, you know, things that worked things that didn't work, how they're maintaining it. But the people coming into this space, we pay our superintendents, and they're, you know, people that are, you know, craft workers that are in our space, that these are not things you talk about, they don't talk about love and care and compassion, and you talk about people, you don't talk about those things, you show up and you do your job. But we can't just focus on that anymore. Not at not in not in the in the environment we're in not in just the world we're in right now. Because if we don't focus on the people part, in that one, nothing's going to get fixed, nothing's going to change. And number two is in the workforce that we have right now. And the lack of it, you gave me this, this stat and I use it and everything I say, every alignment meeting, every onboarding, but you know, there are 1 million unfilled construction jobs out there. And right now people can decide where they want to be. And if you take money off the table, if you pay people what they need to be paid, and you compensate them, what makes them stay, and what makes them leave, and you've got to find something that's going to create an environment that they want to stay in. And for me, that's you focusing on the people part, and not so much the outcome part.
Felipe Engineer 48:14
Absolutely. I'm gonna give you another stat to Jennifer that just makes it even paints even a darker picture. We have statistics came out from the US government here in the United States, across all industries, we had over 4 million people resigned from their jobs. This past quarter, over 4 million said you know what? I'm not coming to work anymore. This isn't for me. So Jennifer, you're absolutely right. If we don't focus on the people, and the types of environments we're having, we need to allow for people to show up completely not, not with the schism, or a partial show up, we need the whole person, I want it so that on every project, every whole human being, all things that they are can show up and be supported and thrive on our jobs. And you want that same thing. I think that might be one of the ripples that has us all connected lock arm in our group that we're all unified on that we haven't said yet. So thank you for saying it. And bringing that forward to to my attention. Now I know how locked arm we are. We're in lockstep marching across this new wall, if I use your analogy, we're gonna jump off a cliff, we're gonna jump off a cliff into the unknown, and we're gonna see where it goes. And I think people are digging it because we're seeing a lot of people showing up like you said, and coming to these events, I've been to a handful of them and I've watched almost all the replays and there are some shocking, you know, vulnerable moments that I don't think anybody ever asks. I don't I know that you and Jesse didn't plan for those to happen. In fact, I've heard Jesse say multiple times that there is no plan Yes, which I'm learning to get more comfortable. It's totally not true because you had a plan. He just didn't have the same plan.
Jennifer Lacy 50:09
But I went what but I want to hit also too. And you you've said it fleabay is how Pete? Adam, is this the other day, we were talking about this exact conversation, this this topic. And we were talking about how people show up, how people show up on the job, and what in what what happens to them on the job that allows them to do their job, and making sure that they're able to show up, and Adam goes, but are we also having the conversation on? How are they leaving, because once they leave, they're going home. And so what's happening on site that not only draws them in and makes them want to be there and excited to do the work that we do. But what are we doing on site that when they leave, they're able to go home, and be able to be happy and be able to take care of their family and be able to sleep well, and be able to live in a place that is not going to then affect them the next day. And those are conversations that we you know, we're just starting to kind of have, you know, we talk about mental health a lot, you know, in some of the things that you share, I know we're going to talk about that, actually, that's going to hit a little bit, the last session on the 27th. You know, we're taking kind of the five s stuff and a lot of the things we've talked about. And then also some of the conversations that happened in the clubhouse after parties, and a lot of that hit on the mental health part. And it's the you know, the things that affect people that when they are on the job, how it's affecting them, but also when they go home. And how that then transcends into those family, that family time. And I mean, again, as simple as just sleep, if you're not getting good sleep because of whatever reason, whether it's health wise, whether it's your your situation, whether whatever it is, that is going to affect how you show up to work the next?
Felipe Engineer 51:53
Absolutely, as Jennifer, I've gotten calls every single week, this year for people that are having challenges at work, and if you know and thank goodness, I've got some friends that we've got some professional friends that are in the mental health space. One is I just call him Dr. Adam, and then Dr. Ted ESSA, and we've done we have a mutual friend with Sean. And Sean's also been on the podcast, Sean Graystone. And in that clubhouse, we talked about the mental health challenges and some of our our tribe members came to our our suicide awareness workshop that we did earlier this year. And the doctors talked about some of the factors that they can trigger people are, you know, that are taking that making that choice to end their lives. Because of all the things that are happening. It's very complex, but some of the things that they they hit on, because if you once you can start to recognize what some of those factors are, you can work to improve those and you absolutely nailed one of them. One of the first things is are you sleeping right? What is your sleep? I had a call this I mean, I'm not even. It's like incredible. You just mentioned that because just this week, there's a high performing individual doesn't work at our company. But we're friends through through all the things we do with the tribe and the squad. And they were they're having a really frustrating, stressful, high stressful experience at work. And I don't want to get into the details of what they're what they're facing. And And as I'm listening to the person I asked, I was like, Do I have permission to make recommendations? Or do you just want me to listen? Because I learned this from from the professionals like sometimes you just shut up and just listen to people. And that's all they need. And this person said, Yeah, I actually would, I would love some guidance, because I'm just, I'm drifting. And I feel like I'm lost. And I said, How much sleep did you get last night? How much sleep do you get the night before? What are you eating right now? Like what was the last meal you had found out that they were sleeping less than three hours a day, couldn't sleep, the stress at work, the work stress was so high. And then the the type of food it was all garbage, the food they're eating, not anything of nutrition, I mean, arguably not food. I'm not going to name what the stuff is, but it wasn't it wasn't food that you would recognize as food. And so I said, I want you to just do one thing, when we hang up. And this was like, you know, approaching 10 o'clock at night. We're having this conversation I said, Well, we hang up, I want you to just like take a relaxing shower, bath, whatever your choice is, and then go to sleep and just chill. And then tomorrow morning when you get up, have a good breakfast of food that we both agree as food like and I said, if your great grandparents wouldn't recognize it as food, then that's not for you for tomorrow's breakfast. So think back to honor them. And all the sacrifices they made for you think about them. It's easier Jennifer and we put it on doing something to benefit somebody else to take care of ourselves better. And so he did and then he called me two days later and he said my goodness, he's like what a difference getting some sleep has made now I'm ready to go through this challenge of what I'm going through and the person is still going through it But he's going through with a totally different outlook, this the tone in his voice, night and day, for one couldn't sleep. So if you're listening to this show now and you're struggling to sleep, you're listening to this podcast instead of sleeping, turn off the podcast, hit pause, it'll be there for you tomorrow, it will be there for you tomorrow. We're not ever taking these down, these are going to be available forever. So get get your rest. And if you're in a high stress state, like Jennifer said, and like what Adam is rightfully bringing up, we want you to be able to have a great experience at work, and then translate that as a lifestyle, and bring that great experience to your home life as well. Why not? Why not be happy at work, and why not be happy at home?
Jennifer Lacy 55:45
And you're saying this, and what's hitting me the most is it, we're used to that go, go, go go go, whether it's deadlines, whether it's budget, you know, schedule, it's like, all these things that we know, we've got to hit this, we've got to hit this, we've got to hit this, okay, we have a constraint, we have a roadblock we have, like, that's normal. That's, that's our industry, we know, that's what it is, obviously, a lot of our tools help create a more proactive approach to a lot of those things, but is never, ever gonna say never, and I don't use that word, it's never going to negate those things that are going to pop up. And there's things that we can't predict, and we can't control, it can help alleviate some of that. But there are going to be things that happened. But if we create the environments, that we are looking at things more proactively, it will not be continue putting out fires over and over again. Because that to me is where that stress is elevated. When you're just reacting, reacting, reacting. And then you're going home and guess what you're going to go home and React, React react, you're not going to go in with this positive outlook, when you have to interact with your kids, when you have to interact with your partner, you know, when you are you're just everything's reaction, and then it's in what are you cramming into that so then you can show up and do a lot more reacting the next day, it just that is not a good place. For us at our stress levels, just anything, the way we function, the way we process the way we look at things. You cannot try to look at how you're improving something when all you're doing is just trying to deal with that moment.
Felipe Engineer 57:08
Jennifer Lacy 57:09
Me versus like, I mean, it's easy when you get when it's me and I'm focusing on me and I'm what do I have to do and what I have to get done? And what are my responsibilities and all those, like it just keeps going and it keeps snowballing versus Okay, what do we have to do? What how what are we what are we tackling? What are we?
Felipe Engineer 57:25
What are we? How many people do we know Jennifer and you and I probably know a few that show up to work early, take work home, work on the weekends come in early, leave late. And they're just their their level of ownership on the project is like superhuman. But what kind of I mean, are they are they doing I don't even know like, we need to, we need to rope somebody else in here to unpack that a little bit. But for those individuals, like if they're if that's the state of where you're thriving, then let's support you and help you realize like Jennifer said, we, it's a we construction is a weak, it's not an eye. It's a we we can help each other. It's okay, Jennifer, is it okay for people to ask for help?
Jennifer Lacy 58:10
Oh, my gosh, yes. Absolutely. It is not a sign of weakness, it is not a sign of urine, you don't have all the answers. Because we already know that we don't have all the answers. And we already know that there's always opportunity to make something better. And so when you take that just take that moment of asking for help, or asking for, hey, do you have an idea or bringing another person into the conversation, I do an exercise in my alignment meetings. And we go through and we do kind of like a kind of a brain teaser, and we have everybody go through and they have a minute they can fill it out. And then at the end, we go How many did you get in it's like seven, eight, you know, whatever we go through, then they get to find one other person and partner together and go through the same exercise. And then okay, now how many did you get? Okay, it's, you know, we got five or 10 more. And then Okay, now the whole team has a minute. And now you can all work together. Now let's see how many we get. And it says a simple exercise. But what is cool is in that whole exercise, it takes like five or six minutes to finish the whole exercise. And we and I and I tell him at the end I say, okay, so how many times during the day, you're walking around, and because of your experience, your knowledge, everything you've done up until that point, you run into something or an issue comes up and you have the answer. You know what to do that happen says all the time, because we don't know. But what happens if we take a moment and bring one other person into the conversation? And we ask them What about what what do they think now? How many perspectives are we bringing into that conversation in that issue to what happens if given time constraints and things like that we have time to bring in a group of people. Now how many perspectives and how much experience and how many ideas are brought into that conversation and they're just and they're like, you know a lot and it's like, we don't think about that because hey, we have the answer. We know what to do. And we just do it without thinking that Anytime we bring one other person into the conversation and ask, you're getting a different perspective.
Felipe Engineer 1:00:05
Absolutely. Jennifer, that is the power of people working together.
Jennifer Lacy 1:00:11
Okay, so again, we've talked about a lot of things. I think for me right now the biggest, I guess the thing that's most important in on my heart right now, the things that I'm really trying to dig into, is that, that that space for vulnerability, and I think we talked about it a little bit with the, with the mental health, and, you know, what are we creating on site, what are we looking at, to be able to allow people to have a safe space and to be able to talk about things. And I just want to make the point that you cannot pull those people into that space, you cannot say you've done it, and now they're, they need to come in and they need to unpackage you need to create the space and invite them in and let them show up. And let them show up and sit in the background. And then let them show up and maybe give a comment, or contribute. And then let them show up. And they will slowly be able to find where they can be vulnerable and sharing what's important and what maybe they need to do but you are not able to pull that out of them. You've got to let just create the space and allow them to show up and on their own time in their own space. They will be able to do that. And when we start creating that space and making those connections. It is it is going to change our freakin industry.
Felipe Engineer 1:01:32
Jennifer amazing. Thank you so much. Very special thanks to my guest. I'm Felipe Engineer-Manriquez. The EBFC show is created by Felipe and produced by passion to build easier and better thanks for listening. Stay safe everybody. Let's go build!